top of page

Close Encounters 
of the Fourth Kind
What is the 
Alien Abduction Experience?
(click on picture above)

What is the desert of the real in The Matrix?

Morpheus, a character in The Matrix, quotes Baudrillard when he says “Welcome to the desert of the real”. This phrase refers to a cultural space where hyperreality doesn't refer to the real solid world but to the virtual world.

Abductions Explained from our Research Findings

Taken from "Piercing The Cosmic Veil, You Shall Not Be Afraid Of The Terror By Night"

Getting back to talking with Gary Bates, our discussions led to the subject of hypnosis. Not about hypnotic regressions on the experiencers as many researchers were doing, but the similarities that Gary was seeing of stage hypnosis

and the experience itself. The similarities were uncanny. 

The recall of an experience was very similar to the recall of someone who had been stage hypnotized and given powerful suggestions, like participating in a play on stage. There are props used that help set the atmosphere for the people watching a stage play. But only certain suggested props, to get the point across. Not everything needs to be there, as in reality, to know what idea is being put across.

I started to explore this a little on my own with some of the testimonies I had worked with over the years. I had only taken their recollection of their experiences and documented them for the record. With this new idea, I wanted to go back to them and ask more in-depth questions of the experience itself. As I did this, I started finding similarities that were unusual. Things were missing.

Let me give you an example. If I ask you to sit and recall everything you can remember about your last birthday, you would easily be able to do that. On your first round of sharing your memory, the most prominent things or important things to you will come out. If I question you about less remembered details I would be able to help you recall other suppressed memories that were still recorded in the memory banks of your brain. All of the senses would have been at work recording the experiences of the day. You just might need help bringing them forward. And keep in mind I am not using hypnosis for memory recall with experiencers. Just ask the right questions.

Even if you wake up from a very vivid dream and can remember it clearly, your own mind fills in every detail so a complete picture is created. It may be a puzzling dream, a nightmare, or a recollection of a lived event, but everything is filled in. It’s complete, and actually quite amazing if you take the time to think about it.

But, when I did the same thing with the testimonies I re-interviewed, there were gaps of memory. Not all of the senses had recorded information of the experience. It was like the stage play setting, having only what was needed to make the play “seem” real. They were sensational, yes, but the sensational points were all that there was to the memory.

An example if you will. One of the best descriptions of the so-called alien abduction experience I have ever seen demonstrated comes from a Hollywood movie. The movie was not about abductions, but definitely explains what I am trying to share with you. The movie was The Matrix and the scene in question is the one in which Neo (Keanu Reeves) is first getting plugged in. He lays down on the bed and they hook him up from the back of his head, and he is instantly in this area that is all white, nothing else. Then Morpheus is there. They walk to a living room scene, only furniture is there, but you realize it’s a living room setting. Now, here is the most important part of that scene in relation to abductions, Neo is still on the bed-he never went anywhere.

These visitors definitely have the ability to “pierce the veil” that separates us from them. It appears to be done in two separate but distinct ways. They can temporarily manifest as objects that people call UFOs or UAPs, and they can temporarily affect our thoughts in our dream state or when we are in an altered state of mind, as with the use of mind altering drugs, whether prescribed or not.

The question we have to ask ourselves is, if this experience is an implanted memory, put together like a stage play (sensational, but not complete), who is the playwright? Who or what is this intelligent force behind this?

Even the famous French researcher Jacques Vallee questioned this observation. His quotes below:

“I will stress once again that we do not know the source from which the UFOs or the alien beings come. Whether or not, for example, they originate in the physical universe as modern astrophysics has described it. But they manifest in the physical world and bring about definable consequences in that domain. We are dealing with a yet unrecognized level of consciousness, independent of man but closely linked to the earth.... I do not believe anymore that UFOs are simply the spacecraft of some race of extraterrestrial visitors. This notion is too simplistic to explain their appearance, the frequency of their manifestations through recorded history, and the structure of the information exchanged with them during contact. Human beings are under the control of a strange force that bends them in absurd ways, forcing them to play a role in a bizarre game of deception. The symbolic display seen by the abductees is identical to the type of initiation ritual or astral voyage that is embedded in the occult traditions of every culture... We are dealing with a yet unrecognized level of consciousness, independent of man but closely linked to the earth... If they are not an advanced race from the future, are we dealing instead with a parallel universe, another dimension where there are other human races living, and where we may go at our expense, never to return to the present? From that mysterious universe, are higher beings projecting objects that can materialize and dematerialize at will? Are UFOs "windows" rather than "objects"? The 'medical examination' to which abductees are said to be subjected, often accompanied by sadistic sexual manipulation, is reminiscent of the medieval tales of encounters with demons. It makes no sense in a sophisticated or technical framework; any intelligent being equipped with the scientific marvels that UFOs possess would be in a position to achieve any of these alleged scientific objectives in a shorter time and with fewer risks.”

As researchers, we also have to look at this from the aspect of the “false memory syndrome.” But determining whether it is false memory or no memory in relation to the missing information that should be there, is difficult to determine.

Another issue when looking at the power of suggestion and how it plays into all of this, as in stage hypnosis, is the information gleaned from researchers that use hypnotic regression to recover memories that seem lost.

Most of the hundreds of experiencer testimonies that I’ve encountered over the past twenty plus years approached the subject by saying: “I’ve been having these dreams…” The reason they talk to me in the first place is because I am a UFO/Alien Abduction researcher. What I see is this: people have a memory of what seems like it could have been a dream. They relate it to what they have seen in the popular UFO culture and what others have reported. They put the two together and think, what if I have had an experience like they report of alien abduction? So, what do they do next? They go see their family doctor, right? Not hardly-he would think they are crazy. So they seek out a UFO researcher or investigator (someone who already believes this to be real) and asks for help. That researcher puts them under hypnotic regression to help them remember.

Stop. Did you catch that? The person has already set themselves up to give answers of an abduction experience to the hypnotist. 

The SUGGESTION has come from themselves. They are presupposing they already are experiencers. And subconsciously, they do not want to be failures. This is very similar to what happens to people who volunteer as participants in stage hypnosis.

Even Jacques Vallee had something to say about the use of hypnosis with the study of alien abductions:

“Can help be provided to the traumatized witness who has experienced a close encounter and possibly an abduction? Absolutely. He or she should be directed to a qualified, professional hypnotherapist who is open-minded on the question of the UFO reality and who has reached no personal conclusion regarding the nature and origin of the phenomenon. And the ufologist should only be in the room at the request of, and under the control of, the therapist. Any other procedure, in my opinion, is unethical and unprofessional. Besides, it runs the risk of polluting the delicate, complex abduction database with fantastic and spurious material. It can drive UFO research over a very dangerous cliff.” (p. 159)

The worst part of this is that researchers take what is told by these individuals as absolute fact. The hypnosis can’t be wrong, right? Listen to them, they swear by the results of the regressions they perform. But of course, they have to. They have nothing else to stand on. Because, after over 70 years of UFO research, there is still no proof of extraterrestrials visiting Earth.

Here is a real good piece from my friend and peer in this Christian UFO realm, Gary Bates. It’s from his book "Alien Intrusion: UFOs and the Evolution Connection", (Updated & Expanded) Paperback – May 31, 2010.

“Gary has been speaking on the creation/evolution issue since 1990. With a background in management and marketing, in 2002, he was invited to join the ministry full-time in Brisbane and eventually became its Head of Ministry. Much in demand for his popular lay talks on creation, Gary and his family relocated to America to serve as CEO of CMI-US. He was also elected to the position of CEO of CMI-Worldwide, CMI’s international Federation of ministries. He held this position from its inception in 2008 until mid-2016 when he decided to step down and concentrate on the task of managing the rapidly growing USA office and expanding the ministry’s reach in other areas. This included co-writing and producing CMI’s award-winning documentary Evolution’s Achilles’ Heels.

Once a convinced evolutionist, the Creation message had a dramatic impact on Gary’s life. He is now a biblical creationist with a heart to communicate this life-changing information to the average ‘person in the street’.

Concerned about the tremendous interest in UFOs and associated extraterrestrial beliefs, Gary undertook specialist research in an attempt to solve this seemingly baffling phenomenon. This led to hisAmazon.comtop 50 bestseller Alien Intrusion: UFOs and the Evolution Connection — (the only Creationist book ever to achieve this feat). This landmark book provides biblical answers to the many puzzling questions regarding UFOs, and whether there is intelligent, sentient alien life on other planets (our theological position on this is no. Please read the first article below for why). As a leading Christian authority in this area, Gary has travelled extensively around the world, speaking and conducting literally hundreds of interviews on radio, television and various media. Gary has also undertaken the task of writing, producing and directing a movie-style documentary based upon his book called Alien Intrusion: Unmasking a Deception. It will be premiering in cinemas around the world early in 2018.”

An excerpt from Alien Intrusion: UFOs and the Evolution Connection by Gary Bates

Hypnosis is actually just a label that has been applied to a very broad, imperfectly understood set of mind phenomena. However, the phenomenon of hypnosis is not new. When it comes to deceiving mankind, fallen angels do not need to “reinvent the wheel”, and the Bible also indicates that man is only ever tempted by what is common to him (1 Corinthians 10:13).

When it comes to trying to unravel abduction episodes, there are many hypotheses percolating among the UFO community, with most resorting to unknown forces to explain what we cannot be sure is actually occurring anyway. None of these elegant hypotheses have any experimental or empirical basis to them. There is a distinct lack of physical evidence in these episodes, and there are no non-abductee eyewitnesses to abduction events, for example. 

While my own hypnosis theory is hypothetical, it appeals to mechanisms we know exist, to things that we know can actually be done via hypnosis. In mentioning some of these experiences earlier (and there are more below), I am pointing out that hypnosis is a known quantity that can be used to explain what is occurring during alleged alien abductions. 

Using the Ockham’s razor approach (see chapter 4) I am suggesting that abduction episodes are an illusory spiritual deception that is being planted into the minds of experiencers to create the “reality”—a false memory in effect. This not only fits the instances where individuals are concerned. 

In the case of the Allagash Four, too, the hypnosis theory fits the circumstances perfectly. Mass hypnosis episodes can also occur, and subliminal messages can be imposed on entire groups as shown earlier in the description of the shopping mall experiments.

So how can the appearance of a UFO in the sky lead to missing time and a recollection of being abducted by an alien?

Firstly, as we have shown, UFOs have changed their shapes over the years. They seem able to morph into a form that is culturally acceptable to the victim. This can help to create an openness to further suggestion. In the past UFOs appeared as flying canoes, and today they appear as spaceships, which automatically evokes the idea that they are piloted by extraterrestrial spacemen (and thus creates the opening for the alien abduction scenario). Jaques Vallée showed that the abductors have morphed over the years too. Anything from fairies and elves to ETs—whatever seems culturally acceptable to the population. 

Hypnotherapy is almost always done with relaxation and relatively gradual induction with a soft, soothing voice. But these are not even necessary with about 20% of the population (or well prepared subjects). Modern hypnotists also use lights and sounds to stimulate people to make them susceptible to suggestion. This is a characteristic also often used in sightings prior to abductions. Hypnotists can paralyze people—even when the patient is fully conscious. A clinical hypnotherapist confirmed to me:

Sleeping people do not usually transition into hypnosis, and are not subliminally suggestible, but waking up from an REM stage with shock and surprise would provide the perfect brainwave transition ... to induce an immediate deep state in “suggestible” subjects.

This was a common device in brainwashing techniques ... though usually with brutal shock and confusion. The gently repeated, soothing whispers “you’re alright” or something similar would have less trauma, but should be very effective in leaving a “trigger” imprint in the subject’s spirit that could be harnessed at a later time.

This method of waking people occurs commonly in alien abduction scenarios. Similarly, when entities appear in a room, many claim that they feel compelled to look into the entity’s eyes—another method used by hypnotists. Once they are in this controlled state they are very prone to further suggestion. 

The idea that the entities communicate telepathically is also a common belief—something that fits no known scientific observations. But this could easily be believed if messages to that effect were being placed while under hypnosis.

There is also another pattern among abductees that I have discovered alongside of any pre-belief or openness to the idea of ETs, and it is that there seems to be an additional “entry point”, so to speak. 

People who have unresolved trauma or issues in their past seem to be particularly vulnerable to alien abductions and False Memory Syndrome in general. This is something recognized by many medical experts operating outside of the UFOlogical area. In addition, those suffering from current problems such as alcoholism, drug addiction also seem to be susceptible. I have seen on occasions where people suffering with mental disabilities have had similar experiences as identified using the CAS categorization. Unfortunately, when these folks talk about their experiences they are largely ignored and the claims are passed off as the fruit of their illnesses. 

Of course, no amount of personal frailty can, by itself, explain such things as the seemingly shared experiences of the Allagash Four, for example. It seems that the master deceiver and enemy of God (the devil/Lucifer/Satan) and his cohorts (other fallen angels) are no respecter of persons, and seem to be largely opportunists.

Missing time

The missing time aspect is a fundamental key to understanding the methods used by these angelic beings. Earlier in the book we detailed the characteristics of angels. They are inter-dimensional, immensely powerful and intelligent sentient beings. If human beings can easily perform such deeds on their fellows, it cannot be any more difficult for angels to perform the same. Being able to appear instantly in a room would ensure anybody’s attention, and once entities become the focus of the victim, most methods of hypnosis would become readily available. Experiencers usually only consciously remember the initial sighting of a UFO or an entity they believe to be alien. They then wake up several hours later with no conscious recollection of anything occurring during the missing time. 

However, when regressed, the victims are able to recount seeming events with incredible detail. Let’s remember that all these entities have to do is to paint a picture to the unconscious victim—stories about cold metallic inspection tables, crude instruments, video screens—the works! Gary Bates, Alien Intrusion: UFOs and the Evolution Connection, (Updated & Expanded) Paperback, May 31, 2010


April 6, 2022admin

Former CIA Officers Jim Semivan And John Ramirez Alien Encounter: There’s A Whole Other Reality That Surrounds Us

Since 1947, the CIA and UFOs have been interlinked together. People who used to work for the CIA and for the US military have since made shocking statements about UFOs. These statements have been a driving force in UFO research. R. James Woolsey, Derrel Sims, Lue Elizondo, David Fravor, and other former CIA and US military officials have discussed how the UFO phenomenon could be linked to the fact that there is a lot of reality around us that we can’t see.

In recent times on the George Knapp show, two veteran CIA officers, Jim Semivan and John Ramirez, debated about the CIA’s involvement in the investigation of UFOs and their own personal experiences with UFOs, or Unidentified Aerial Phenomena. After working for the CIA for 25 years, Jim Semivan went to Tom Delonge’s To the Stars Academy with other people who had worked for the government. He went into depth and discussed how he was elected to the CIA and mastered spycraft, which takes years to master. The “Need-to-Know” principle is followed by the CIA, so this was the reason that Semivan was unaware that the CIA was doing UFO studies, despite the fact that CIA analyst Kit Green was well known for his interest in the paranormal.

Jim Semivan former CIA officer

It all started in 1990, when Semivan and his wife had their own encounters with aliens in their bedroom, as Semivan recounted on Coast to Coast AM show. He stated that it was a real encounter and not a state of trance. Paranormal activities were observed by both Semivan and his wife in their house. Recently, Semivan claimed to have seen a hooded figure resembling the Death Eater character from Harry Potter, who may have appeared to foretell the death of a close friend. Semivan agreed with the statements made by Skinwalker Ranch researcher Colm Kelleher that the UFO phenomenon is a lot more than nuts and bolts and machines. There are also psychic and biological elements that make things even weirder. He noted that Star’s examination of “metamaterials” with odd isotopic ratios that could be linked to UFOs was still going on.

“I think they mention that the phenomenon is a natural part of our universe, and we’re living in it but we don’t recognize it. The same way that insects and animals don’t recognize the human universe. A cat and a dog could be running through a library, but they don’t have the faintest idea what the books are all about and what libraries are all about. We might be walking through our existence and there’s a whole other reality that surrounds us that we just simply don’t have the ability to see or interact with.”

“It seems to be peeking inside our little consensus reality. As I explained to somebody once, it comes close, it teases us, it cajoles us, it lies to us, but you can never take it home to meet the parents. It won’t allow you to do that. There’s no formal introduction. Add on top that there’s no ontology, which is just a fancy word, it basically means there’s no structure to even discuss this. We don’t have a common lexicon. Somebody said we have dots but no connections. I don’t even think we have dots.”


​"The one thing we can offer people in this field, that nobody else anywhere is offering is "hope".

Hope that they can STOP this experience"

# Joseph Jordan CE4 Research Group

"They came quietly, silently over my head. There were many types of ships in numerous shapes and sizes. Some were as large as your local mall, others the shape and size of a train, and some appeared disc-like. The armada lasted an hour and a half. The next three to four years manifested itself into a horror which I never imagined I could have endured. I experienced multiple sightings and UFO encounters, various beings present in videos on my phone, and finally what you would call an alien abduction. My mind was at the point of madness - suicide seemed the only way out. I understood that this would be the end of me."

Jason Dezember

Affiliated Websites 

That We Highly Recommend

JOSEPH JORDAN- CE4 Research Group -

Researcher of Alien Abduction Experience - Author, Speaker, MUFON National Director


Show Host -Creation Scientist-Researcher

ARKALOGIK ( Destiny Lab)

Show Host- Christian Rap Artist -Music and Merchandise.


Creation Minsitries- Documentary /film Maker- Minister

Author- Creation Magazine

Norio Hayakawa

Researcher - Show Host


Alien Abduction Experiencer - Author - Speaker

Mutual UFO Network  

Our Old CE4 Research Group Website

We are open about all of our findings, we keep no secrets.  ,



Affiliated Books Recommended for you

Click on the book to take you to purchse at Amazon

Highly Recommended YouTube Sites

CE4 Research Group-Joseph Jordan -​​

Alien Intruders-Piercing The Cosmic Veil Show -

Ian Juby - Creation Science -

Guy Malone - -The Alien Resistance -

Gary Bates- Creation Ministries -


Joseph G. Jordan is a 27-year member of the Mutual UFO Network, the world's oldest, largest, all volunteer, not for profit, civilian, UFO investigation & research organization.

Joe is the MUFON National Director for South Korea, a MUFON (Rapid Deployment) Star Team member, and a member of the MUFON Inner Circle.

By profession, Joe is a Safety Professional for an American contractor company supporting the U.S. in South Korea, where he has worked and lived for the past ten years.

Joe is also the head of CE4 Research Group, an investigative research group that studies the “so-called” alien abduction phenomenon from a Christian perspective. The research findings of CE4 Research Group, (the most powerful evidence in the world today, of the true nature of the entities behind the “so-called” alien abduction experience), have been published in over 37 different authored books in the past two decades.

Joe Jordan, along with CE4 Experiencer, Jason Dezember, released their new book “Piercing the Cosmic Veil, You Shall not be Afraid of the Terror by Night”, where the published findings of CE4 Research Group lean toward a more likelihood of the visitors being of an interdimensional (or spiritual) nature, rather than extraterrestrial biological entities. Their book is now available for order on Amazon in paperback, as well as in Kindle format.

Joe Jordan and the CE4 Research Group, are now video interviewing experiencer testimonials on their new YouTube Show, “Alien Intruders-The Piercing The Cosmic Veil Show”​




by Rita Elkins, Originally Published August 17th 1997 in Florida Today

Big Stretch: Imagine that alien abduction experiences and demons are equally real.

Hey, we said it'd be tough. But you were halfway there watching the recent movie, "Fire in the Sky," right? One more step and you're in the strange and trendy world of UFOlogy theology, where extraterrestrials could be even scarier than you think.

Odd as it sounds, the spiritual life of aliens is being taken seriously in wide-ranging discussions among religious leaders. Magazine articles, books and even evangelists are engaging in Bible-based speculations about the nature and intention of entities that allegedly kidnap, paralyze, physically abuse and sometimes sexually molest victims - many of whom, more strangely still, come to believe the experience was worthwhile


Religious leaders are alarmed about a growing train of thought that "wants us to reject traditional Judeo-Christian ideas about God" in favor of benign "Space Brothers" who will save humanity from itself, writes journalist William M. Alnor in his book, "UFOs in the New Age" (Baker, Grand Rapids, Mich.) Alnor concludes this new belief is a set-up for apocalyptic deceptions predicted in the Bible's Book of Revelation.

He's not alone.

"The similarity between the abduction experience and demonic possession is very, very close," says Joe Jordan of Cocoa, Brevard/Volusia state director for the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), a widely respected clearinghouse for UFO-related research.

"These (alien contact) experiences these people are having are real. It does exist. But you just need to understand what's doing it."

Jordan and his partner, Wes Clark, have begun a research group called CE-4 (close encounters of the fourth kind, i.e. abductions), dedicated to studying alleged alien abductions. Its 15 members also belong to MUFON, but "nothing we do is necessarily sanctioned by them," says Clark, a quality control engineer at Kennedy Space Center.

MUFON principals did not respond to inquiries about CE-4's unusual hypothesis, summarized by Jordan:

"This whole thing is spiritual warfare. And the method the enemy's using is deception. Strong deception."

In other words, entities really are abducting people against their will. Only, they're not aliens from other planets. They're demons from the pit of hell.

Joe Jordan is addressing a "New Millennium Symposium" in Titusville. With his intense brown eyes and shoulder-length hair, he mingles easily with New Age folks who paid $44 to study pyramids, Mayan deamspells, Lakota prophesies, and to hear Jordan talk about "UFO Abductions."

Jordan, who works in product development and engineering for Sea Ray Boats, speaks calmly, his voice firm, with good grammar and diction. Kooks don't get to be state directors with science-orientated MUFON, for whom he has chased lights for seven years.

Last year he focused on CE-4 research, and encountered a Central Florida abductee whose otherwise-typical experience had one unique aspect. "They had stopped the experience while it was happenning. In all the time I've been researching, I'd never heard that before."

Jordan punches buttons on a tape recorder. A nameless, 30-something man with an intelligent-sounding voice, slightly southern, tells his story. Calmly, at first.

There were strange lights in a nearby woods at bedtime, barking dogs. He is up and down a few times, yelling at the dogs while his wife sleeps soundly. Then, lying down again...

"I couldn't move... gray fog. I couldn't see anything, but it was like someone was there." He felt himself lifted off the bed. I was terrified, so helpless... screaming inside, but I couldn't get it out."

The voice is less calm now, but still certain, not hesitant.

"I thought I was having a satanic experience, that the devil had gotten hold of me and had shoved a pole up my rectum and was holding me up in the air... so helpless. I couldn't do anything."

A non-religious person, he'd been to church with his wife a few times.

"I said, 'Jesus, Jesus, help me' or Jesus, Jesus, Jesus!' And when I did, there was a feeling or a sound or something. That either my words that I had thought, or the words that I had tried to say or whatever, hurt whatever was holding me up in the air on this pole.

"And I felt like it was withdrawn, and I fell. I hit the bed, because it was like I was thrown back in the bed. I really can't tell what it was. But when I did, my wife woke up and asked why I was jumping on the bed."

Yeah, but...

Relentless anonymity is a given in abduction research. Nobody in their right mind wants family, friends and co-workers to know they've had their personal space violated against their will by strange-looking creatures whose existence isn't even proven.

So they can't give names. But Jordan and Clark swear they have three verifiable cases in which apparent abduction experiences were halted by believers who called on the name of Jesus. And Jordan says as many as 400 cases may be documentable nationwide.

"It makes you wonder: if these beings are extra-terrestrial at all, why would they respond to that name?" Jordan asks. "We think we found the answer in the Bible, in Mark 16:17 where Jesus said, 'In my name they shall cast out demons.' That seems to be exactly what we came across."

Three major researchers told Jordan, off the record, that they had similar cases. But "They were afraid for their credibility," he says. "They felt they already had put their credentials out far enough dealing with extra-terrestrials." Other "so-called researchers (are) sitting on this information," Jordan says. "There's something wrong there. They're just as bad as the people they say have conspiracies in other ways."

Why would anyone suppress such research findings? Jordan, who became a Christian last year, says most UFOlogists share his former New Age beliefs, which dismiss Christianity and Judaism. "These people go from one thing to another looking for development of a higher consciousness," he says. Anyplace but in traditional religion


Stranger still...

An estimated 40 percent of Americans say they believe aliens have visited Earth. More than a million people worldwide claim CE-4 experiences. Sitll, mainstream Christianity mostly side-stepped the issue - until March's mass suicide at Heaven's Gate showed just how misleading some alien link-thinking could be.

Suddenly, the religious press is full of articles about UFOs.

The May cover story in Central Florida's discovery Christian newspaper focused on UFOlogy theology, interviewing Berkley-trained scientist and Christian author, John Weldon. That was reprinted from Rutherford Institute's nationally-distributed October newsletter.

Even Jewish believers are connecting UFO experiences with the Torah, or Jewish Bible. "Many serious people who have been studying UFOs around the world have reached the consensus that the Bible is a convincing UFO story," said journalist Barry Charnish, quoted in a chapter titled, "UFOs in the Holy Land" from sightings: UFOs, by television writer Susan Michaels (Simon and Schuster, New York, due out in September).

July's Charisma magazine, a 200,000-plus circulation monthly, featured Christian evangelist and author Paul McGuire's article, "Alien Invaders." McGuire cites the evolution of popular New Age author Whitley Streiber's interests - from his first alien contacts in Communion, Transformation and Breakthrough to his latest titles, The Secret School: Preparations for Contact and Evenings with Demons - as an example of a progressive deception.

Indeed, Streiber fans often comment - albeit positively - on their favorite author's change. From experiencing his first alien encounters as terrifying and torturous, he began to seek them out and welcome them, finally advocating them as a religious experience.

That, say religious leaders, indicates a deceptive entity is at work.

"Both the seemingly benign and hostile entities... will play an increasing role in preparing a segment of humanity for the reception of the Antichrist," writes best selling author David Allen Lewis and Robert Shreckhise in UFO: End-Time Delusion.

And the cover of The Agenda, The Real Reason They're Here gives this premise: "In the near future, God will evacuate millions of people from the horrors to follow. Aliens will take the credit" for the Rapture (when Christians will be supernaturally airlifted to heaven), writes B. Fox, a MUFON researcher who resides in - of all places- Roswell, New Mexico.

Back in Titusville at the CE-4 office in Wes Clark's home, Joe Jordan and Clark continue to study, research and solicit abductees through the internet and with classified ads in MUFON's UFO Journal.

"The one thing we can offer people in this field, that nobody else elsewhere is offering, is hope. Hope that they can stop this experience," Jordan says.

"We're still researchers. It's not conclusive. But this is what we have so far."



This is the interview that I did with Joe Jordan. He appeared at this years Roswell UFO event and blew the lid off of the abduction phenomena. He joins us here, in this in depth interview. He was given the questions and answers from the Dr. Jacobs interview and asked to comment on them. What I find of great interest is that you can read the answers side by side and judge for yourself, which answer best suits the phenomena.

L.A. = Lynn Marzulli

D.J. = David Jacobs

J.J. = Joe Jordan

Joe Jordan Interview

1) L.A.: How long have you been studying the abduction phenomena?

D.J.: Well, like most other UFO researchers who began in the 1960s, I was fixated on sighting phenomenon. I thought that abductions were interesting but the evidence seemed to point to a psychological explanation. Besides, the evidence was nowhere near the quality of that for the UFO phenomenon. There were no photos, videos, tapes, disinterested witnesses who could verify the abduction, and so forth. Therefore it wasn't until I met Budd Hopkins in 1982 (we actually had been introduced the year before) that I became interested in the subject.

J.J.: I’ve been researching the so-called abduction phenomenon since 1995, about 14 years. I started out in the UFO realm in 1992 becoming involved with the Mutual UFO Network as a sighting Field Investigator. In 1993, I became MUFON State Section Director for Brevard County, Florida, (where the Kennedy Space Center is located). After a few years being involved in sighting investigations, and feeling like we were tail chasing, I started to take a hard look at the so-called abduction experience. It seemed if we were to get to the truth in the UFO realm, we needed to get closer to the source. That source appeared to be with those who had been in contact with the UFO entities, the so-called abduction experiencers and Contactees.

2) L.A. When did you realize that something very strange was going?

D.J. I decided that the only way that I could gain some insight into the abduction phenomenon for myself was to learn hypnosis. In 1986, I began to do my own hypnosis of abductees. I had a rocky start and once I settled down and began to put proper controls into hypnosis and learn how to recognize confabulation, false memories, and other hypnosis artifacts, I began to feel a reasonable assurance that I was getting accounts that were being told with a fair degree of accuracy. It took about several months of doing sessions when I began to realize that something very strange indeed was going on. I went into a sort of “shock tailspin.” I said to myself, “Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.” repeatedly for about six months. Then I began to get over the shock and eventually it became routine for me, if that is imaginable.

J.J. My fellow researchers (also MUFON Investigators) and I spent many hours reading the research and looking at videos of the top abduction researchers in the UFO field. We wanted to be able to work with the experiencers without causing any harm to them. The one thing we saw was these people had symptoms of having a very traumatic experience in their life. The so called abduction experience was destroying lives and upsetting family relationships. They were expecting that we should be able to help them being UFO researchers. For those who had been looking for answers on their own, we were seeing what Jacque Vallee termed for the Close Encounter of the Fourth Kind, a reality transformation. There seemed to be a spiritual kind of connection for some of these experiencers. Their worldviews as they had been raised were changing. Many were becoming involved with metaphysical or New Age practices as a source of answers for their experience. This was a new area for us as we were looking at this from an objective investigative point of view as MUFON had trained us. There seemed to be a conditioning process going on with the experiencers. Many of the signs were pointing to brainwashing techniques to accomplish this. Another thing to look at is the alleged communication from the entities. The message is usually an anti Judo/Christian message. Jesus is not who we think he is, they are our creators; the Bible is not the inherent word of GOD. Why would these entities go through the effort to convince us of this when all the other religions of the world don’t even agree with each other? What is so important about the Judo/Christian message that they want to make us believe it’s not true? This was an important question to be looked at.

3) L.A. The fact that there appears to be no collusion between the abductees, and that the phenomena, cuts across socio / economics lines, must have been startling when you discovered this aspect of it. Would you elaborate?

D.J. Well, Budd Hopkins had already begun to find out the widespread nature of the phenomenon. But one is indeed confronted with a phenomenon that cuts across all societal, economic, political, geographic, educational, religious, ethnic, racial, and intellectual lines. It is truly amazing that all these people from every strata of life will tell the same exact things even though most have still not been made public by the media.

I have worked with physicians, psychologists, psychiatrists, attorneys, ministers, professors, teachers, and ninth grade dropouts, people who could never hold a job and everyone on the middle. I have worked with people from other countries and cultures, and with people who are exceptionally articulate and people who are not. They all same the same thing, they all have the same experiences and what they recall has nothing to do with their upbringing or their status in life or with anything else that is societal based.

J.J. After studying the Christian religion in relation to the other religions of the world, what we saw as a difference is that in most all religions the foundation is works based. Ritual is the way to enlightenment, whether it is through acquiring more and more knowledge through studies or repetitive acts. They all leave you with feeling like you can never do enough to succeed even though you keep trying and trying. You get the feeling of chasing an unreachable carrot. The Christian religion says you can have a personal relationship with GOD himself. That we have been redeemed and set free through Jesus Christ, GOD comes in the flesh. This personal relationship is made of a free will choice, where the abduction experience is done against our free will. This seems to be what these entities want to take away from us. They try to accomplish this through brainwashing methods, seduction of being special, paranormal abilities, and prophetic messages that don’t come true. Hence the term of Jacque Vallee’s book, “Messengers of Deception”.

4) L.A. What can you tell us about the so-called breeding program that you believe is going on?

D.J. Hopkins discovered the reproductive aspects of the phenomenon and the breeding program itself. I picked up on it and learned more about it. People are shown babies who look like combinations of alien and human. Hopkins called them “hybrids.” Some look quite alien, some look quite human and most look like they are in the middle. I could not understand what this activity was all about. Eventually, as I dug deeper into it, I realized that abductees were seeing beings that looked increasingly human-like with increasing frequency. I theorized a refinement of the species that enabled hybrids to look more human-like as time went on. I also discovered the disquieting concept that the abduction phenomenon was not an experiment, not a study, and not a learning situation. I had been quite intellectually invested in this idea, but the evidence just would not support it. Instead, I found that I was looking at a systematic program. As such, it had a beginning, a middle, and an end. And, it was goal directed.

J.J. I believe the so-called breeding program is just more of the deception we see in dealing with these entities. There is no proof yet that this is actually happening. I believe the experiencers believe it to be part of the experience. It doesn’t actually have to be happening to be effective in its purpose or outcome. We do know false pregnancies happen to women. I believe these entities are using this to their advantage of perpetuating their deception. All they have to do is make the woman believe it is happening to be effective to their being able to control. The maternity instinct is a very powerful tool for them to manipulate. It ends up being a control method to hook the woman in their plan of deception.

5) L.A. Are you fearful of this 'breeding program,' and if so why?

D.J. As a breeding program there would have been nothing to fear were it not for other aspects of the abduction phenomenon that I came across. The most salient one was that abductees were shown pictures of people in groups and asked to pick out the hybrids from the humans. When they were unable to do so, they heard a voice telling them that this was a wonderful thing. Everyone looked alike. Soon everyone would be together here. Soon everything would be great. A change was going to happen and it was going to be just wonderful. When I began to understand that this meant and integration program into human society, I must admit that I became fearful of the phenomenon. I had never experienced fear of the subject until I wrote The Threat in 1998 and then I realized that this phenomenon was very different than I had ever imagined it would be and I didn't like it. I feared it.

J.J. Because this brings out such powerful feelings in the woman, I feel this is probably their most powerful tool for deceiving the experiencer. I have worked with former experiencers who have been freed from the oppression of the experience who now believe this was all a lie. Once they realize this they no longer have that hold on them from the entities.

6) L.A. Could there be any other explanation for what abductees are experiencing other than alien abduction?

D.J. This is a phenomenon that is either psychological or it is happening. There is very little in the middle. Starting with the 1957 Antonio Vilas Boas case in Brazil, members of the therapeutic community have tried and failed to come up with a coherent psychological model for what would cause these fantasies. This is not a good sign for mental generation. The most parsimonious answer without doing extreme mental gymnastics is that these events are happening to people more or less as they remember them.

J.J. First there is no proof that extraterrestrials even exist. If so we would not be having this discussion. Could it be something else? I believe so from the evidence I have come across in my research. The experiencers believe it to be real; it destroys lives and family relationships. That is my concern, how can we help these people get their lives back? Is there a hope we can offer them? These entities are a threat to society. Can they be stopped?

7) L.A. I have seen critics of the abduction phenomena claim that what these people are experiencing is a common sleep related phenomena; I refer specifically to the work of Mary Russell. Would you disagree with her / them and why?

D.J. All abduction debunkers make one or more of three mistakes: They do not know the evidence, they distort the evidence, or they ignore the evidence. The distressing fact is that in all the years that I have been researching this subject, I have found no exceptions. At present, debunkers have presented over thirty “explanations” for abductions. Most of the explanations of mutually exclusive, but the debunkers seem to have little or no knowledge of the history of debunking and so they plow ahead with their bright ideas, which are usually a recycled versions of ideas already thought of, debated, and discarded by serious abduction researchers years before. Mary Russell, Susan Clancy, and others have latched on to the current one: Sleep Paralysis. This, of course is an old and debated one -- as most of them are. The first thing to understand is that the majority (by a small margin) of the 1100 events that I have investigated take place either during the day or at night when the person is not asleep. Some abductions occur in groups and people are able to verify each other's abduction. People are physically missing when they are abducted. We have no (the old Australian Maureen Puddy case notwithstanding) of people being found or seen when they said they were abducted. In addition there is other physical evidence that is solidly part of the abduction phenomenon (scars, wearing someone else's clothes upon return from being abducted, etc.) that must be taken into account by these sleep theories. In other words, the Sleep Paralysis theory beautifully follows the debunkers' intellectual engine: Lack of knowledge of the data, distortion of the data, ignoring the data.

J.J. Agreed, there is a lot more to this than sleep disorder.

8) L.A. Here's the $64 dollar question. Where do you think 'they' come from?

D.J. I do not think I have a $64 answer, but I have an answer that is surprising to those people who think that abductions are psychological. If they were internally generated, we would know the answer to that question but we do not. If, however, the stories were coming out of peoples' minds based on their upbringing and personal situation as well as on popular culture where they would gain their ideas, we would almost certainly know where they are from. In popular culture, most aliens will say their name, where they are from and why they are here. We have never directly discovered this information since the beginning of the phenomenon. IF this were psychological, it would be all over the psychological map. We would be given a myriad of places where they were from, lots of different reasons why they were here, and so on. That this has not happened is strong evidence that this is not derived from popular culture or from psychological origins.

J.J. Very well put by Mr. Jacobs. I believe though once I explain what I’ve found in my research you’ll have your own idea of where they are from.

9) L.A. Jacque Vallee has gone on the record stating that he believes these entities are interdimensional rather than extraterrestrial, your thoughts?

D.J. I don't particularly care, to be honest, where they are from. It would be interesting to know and perhaps Jacques' theory is correct. I really don't know and abductees don't know. What is important, however, is not where they are from and not how they got here. It is why they are here.

J.J. I would have to agree with the views of Jacque Vallee. The entities show the abilities of being interdimensional. They manifest into physical states and are able to leave physical traces during an event. I do not believe that people are actually taken anywhere during an abduction event. The event is more apparitional in nature. They don’t really need to take the person anywhere, just create the illusion they did to perpetrate the deception. Many experiencers have seen their bodies still in bed as they are taken. As if it is an out of body experience. There are two books out now that even talk of people having met these same entities while experimenting with the drug DMT. How is that possible? I believe what many people mistake, as the high technology of these entities is actually their abilities. Abilities that is natural to them. The ability to have us see what they want us to see. The ability to manifest into physicality. The ability to shape shift.

10) L.A. Why all the secrecy on the part of the ET's? What are they hiding?

D.J. The simplest answer is that they do not want us to know what they are doing to us. Without secrecy we might find a way to stop individual abductions. Without secrecy the program would not extend intergenerationally and laterally throughout the society. Without secrecy the human hosting of fetuses, so prevalent in abduction accounts and so important to the aliens, would come to a halt. Without secrecy the entire abduction program would probably be untenable.

J.J. Their agenda is one of deception. They are a threat to humanity. The goal seams to be to change the way we think of life itself. Hence, reality transformation. But at what cost to those that follow them?

11) L.A. What about stories of hybrid children? You mention this dynamic in your books.

D.J. The most important thing about hybrid children is that they provide training for abductees on how to play with special toys that the abductees can manipulate with their minds. The second most important aspect of the children is that they grow up to be adults with functions and jobs within the abduction programs means and goals.

J.J. As I stated before about the hybrid program, I believe it is just more of the deception for the entities to reach their goals. It is a very powerful hook to the experiencer. Where is the evidence?

12) L.A. In Whitley Strieber's book, Communion, he describes the entities that he is allegedly interacting with as, “…Like the demons of old…” Why do you discount the idea that there may be some sort of 'spirit world' and that these entities may malevolent?

D.J. I discount it because in over twenty years of constant abduction research I have found absolutely no evidence for it whatsoever. And, the abductee ministers with whom I have worked have not found this to be the case either.

J.J. I had the opportunity to host the 2008 Roswell UFO Conference this past July 4th weekend. Almost every speaker was looking at the paranormal nature of these entities and the similarities to legends of old. Researchers are starting to question the idea that these entities are really extraterrestrial. If you look at the work of some of the leading pioneers in the field you see the same thing. Why is this ignored by others?

13) L.A. Where do you think this is leading? What's the end game?

D.J. This is an integration program by human-looking hybrids. Integrating into the society would mean that humans would not only become second-class citizens, they would become a second-class species. The hybrids have similar abilities to the aliens - they can control people neurologically in a variety of different ways. Humans cannot do this. My next book will detail how the integration program is taking place. It will talk about the process of integration and the bureaucracy set up to make sure that the integration goes smoothly and safely with abductees' help. I can guarantee that no one will have read anything like it before. Now, if only I could get a contract with a publisher to write it!

J.J. An integration program is a possibility in the future. I believe even that will be only another deception toward the conditioning they are trying to achieve. I hope we are able to recognize their agenda before this can happen.

14) L.A. Has anyone ever stopped an abduction?

D.J. Michael Menkin ( has figured out that the way to stop an abduction is by wearing protective headgear and eyewear. He has had extraordinary results doing so. The problem is that one cannot wear the headgear all day everyday and it does look rather odd in public. More importantly, the vast majority of people who are abductees are not aware of their experiences, although they know that something strange is going on. So, individuals with Mike Menkin's help can stop abductions sometimes, but it is not possible right now for most abductees. Perhaps in the future, it will become more feasible. Unfortunately, prayer, incantation, bargaining, and so forth, do not stop abductions.

J.J. Now to the crux of my research findings. In 1996 I interviewed a gentleman who shared his atypical abduction experience. During his experience, which was terrifying, he was able to stop the experience abruptly. Being a Christian, he called out in the name and authority of Jesus Christ. He immediately woke up startled in his bed. I had not heard of anyone being able to stop an abduction experience before. Puzzled by what we had, I called some of the top abduction researchers in the field to get advice. After sharing the story to them on the phone, they each asked if we could talk off the record. That means I can tell you what they said but not who said it. Each one stated they had come across similar cases in their research. My question was why we had never read or heard about such cases if they had come across them. Their answer was at first that they didn’t know what to make of it. I would have been fine with that answer had they not followed it with another. The other answer was they did not want to go there because it might affect their credibility in the realm. So silence was what they decided on. I have a problem with this, isn’t this what a cover-up is? Forget Government cover-up like we hear so much about, we are getting it from the very researchers that we are relying on for the truth.

Realizing that there were other cases like the one I had come across, I set out to find and document them. Every researcher brings a piece of the UFO puzzle to the table; I chose to make this my piece. A piece that was being ignored. In 1997 my local newspaper did an article on the work we were doing. That article went nationwide due to it being an affiliate of a larger paper. I started getting calls from abduction experiencers all over the country saying they to had stopped their experience the same way. A database was being developed. A few months later a friend alerted me that the magazine, Flying saucer Review had printed the article in its entirety. We were soon getting reports from around the world. These people didn’t feel comfortable sharing their stories with researchers that had only alien agendas. They new something else was going on. They were glad we were there to listen to them. After ten years of documenting cases, we have worked with well over three hundred testimonies of stopping the experience in the name and authority of Jesus Christ. I have posted over seventy-five of them on my website,

It wasn’t long before we had people asking us if we could help them stop their experiences. Learning from those we had worked with already, we showed them how it was possible. And we were able to help them also.

The question researchers have not been able to answer is why is someone abducted? We have learned some very important things from our research that might answer this. One, some people ask for it, I’ve seen this at conferences. And the likes of Whitely Strieber promoting contact. Be careful what you ask for. Another is the finding of seeing people who are dabbling in what is called occult belief systems. This works as a doorway that is opened to allow these entities to mess with them. The one that puzzled us the most in the beginning was the reports of people saying they remember having the experiences as a child. After exploring the family life as a child we often find the parents were into ungodly things. We see an absolute connection to the Christian belief system. We do not find what we call walk-the-walk Christians being affected by this experience. But we do find Christians with not such a good walk being open. This name Jesus Christ is not a magic word. This comes only with a personal relationship to him. He knows your heart.

A very important aspect to this experience is that these entities come against your will. But this Jesus Christ offers you to come to him on your free will. Who do you chose if you have a choice?

I have found a very anti-Christian attitude in the UFO realm, why is that? It seems ok to be of any other belief system or none at all. But say you’re a Christian and your research is not valid. I only took on a piece of the UFO puzzle to help find the truth. Please look at the evidence. The evidence of the case testimonies says the abduction experience can be stopped. Not only once but it can be terminated from your life completely. We have been able to help others, that’s a repeatable event, the only one in the UFO realm.

15) L.A. Your closing thoughts?

D.J. I have learned that the abduction phenomenon is vast, global, and it occurs with great frequency. The aliens have put an enormous amount of time and energy into this program. It is extremely important to them. That is a sobering thought. For those who want to learn a bit more about abductions, they can visit my website at

J.J. Who are these entities? I believe we are dealing with angels, fallen angels from biblical scripture. There purpose is to cheat you out of your GOD given promise of HOPE. This is the conditioning program they are up to. To take your eyes away from the one TRUE GOD. Don’t believe me, test these spirits yourself. And look at the evidence yourself, how many cases does it take for you to see this? We are working with new ones all the time.

bottom of page